Date: October 2nd, 1998 09:25:43
From: dee
e-mail: ChefNana1@aol.com
Subject: color flow Barney
I know this has been discussed to death, but can I make a color flow Barney and place it on a decorated sheet cake(that I decorated) and sell it to a customer? She wants the color flow piece for her 2 yr old grandson to eat later after the cake is gone......dee

Date: October 3rd, 1998 01:40:03
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: color flow Barney
dee; not legally.
lynne

Date: October 3rd, 1998 08:36:47
From: dee
e-mail: ChefNana1@aol.com
Subject: Re: choc. house
Lisa.... I made many choc. houses and sold them for $25.00 in the 1980's. I just haven't bothered to make any lately, but am considering it. My houses were bigger,though, and I had choc. dipped pretzels as a fence around the house. I had no complaints about that price in the 80's. I know I could sell them for more,say 35.00-40.00 now. I do put in a lot of detail. I live in Southeast Louisiana, very near New Orleans...dee:):)

Date: October 3rd, 1998 07:08:41
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: choc. house
hi lisa; i would probably get about $20-25. i am in central calif.
it would depend partly on how much work you put into decorating it.
lynne

Date: October 3rd, 1998 06:48:43
From: Lisa
e-mail: LISASCAKES@aol.com
Subject: choc. house
Hi everyone,

I was asked to do a chocolate house for christmas. How much would you charge for this and what area are you in? It would be about 6x6x7 inches if this helps. My ingredients would cost about $5

Thank you
-Lisa

Date: October 3rd, 1998 11:08:38
From: Bonnie
e-mail: Kak decor1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: How much to charge for a character cake?
I live in Texas, and I usually get $20.00 for a one mix character cake,
or as I fondly call them...TORCHER CAKES! I charge $15.00 for a
1/4 sheet, and $25.00 for a 1/2 sheet. I sell my wedding cakes per
pound instead of by the slice. Hope this helps you. Good luck!

Date: October 5th, 1998 01:21:52
From: Judy
e-mail: cakewhiz@ap.net
Subject: Re: how much to charge for wedding cake plastics
Dear Tina: I have been creating wedding cakes for 22 years, so I have
had a lot of experience dealing with deposits on wedding cake stands. I
used to charge a flat $25.00, but seems that some brides were just too
lazy to return the stands to me for a $25.00 refundable deposit.

So a few years ago, I increased it to $50.00. Now I have no problems
getting back my stands. If they are missing a plate, I charge $l.00 per
inch the size of the plate to replace it. Legs run $l.00 to $l.50 each
depending upon the leg lost. I charge these costs because I have to go
out and buy and replace them or take the time to place an order for
them. My time is worth money.

Yes, over the years, I do get back cake stands that have never been
washed. What do I do? Usually they are embarassed and apologetic when
they return them dirty to me. They just say they did'nt have time to
clean them. I usually say that's OK? Why? Because the last memory I
want imbedded in their mind is how happy they were with their wedding
cake and that they will refer me to other brides. If I charge them a
cleaning fee, THAT IS THE LAST THING THEY WILL REMEMBER, and I can
guarantee you they won't be happy.

Hope this helps you. When you are in business for yourself, you gotta
take the good with the bad and smile nicely and say thank you.

Date: October 4th, 1998 11:39:57
From: Jody
e-mail: RunyanFmly@aol.com
Subject: Color-Flow
Just curious, what do you all charge for color flow pieces? I'm sure
the price would range depending on the detail work involved, but what's
the average?

For instance... a team or business logo?

miscellaneous tools? (hammers, pliers, etc.)

scenery? (a couple of trees a few people)

Lettering? (names, etc.)

Thanks.

Date: October 4th, 1998 10:00:04
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: how much to charge for wedding cake plastics
hi tina; i usually charge a $75 deposit for plastics. if a fountain
is used there is a seperate deposit of $100.

about 1/2 the time the plastics come back dirty. but i would rather
that than not at all -- besides it has to be washed by you anyway (&
should be rinsed in 10% bleach water). i think the one that was the
worst was a family who took off 2-3 days after the wed and were gone
over 3 wks. everything was returned to me w/moldy cake crumbs, icing
and *grass* all over it.lynne

Date: October 4th, 1998 04:36:44
From: Diane
e-mail: rbracke@fuse.net
Subject: Re: how much to charge for wedding cake plastics
Hi Tina,

I always charge the actual replacement cost of each item used. That is
what it will cost you to replace it if not returned. The cost of the
plastics add up. I haven't had the problem of my plastics being
returned unwashed. It is stated in the contract that they are to be
returned clean and in good working condition. Hope this helps.

Diane

Date: October 4th, 1998 10:20:47
From: Tina
e-mail: jcup2@hotmail.com
Subject: how much to charge for wedding cake plastics
Hi! I know almost everyone charges a deposit on the plastics that they
use on wedding cakes (pillars,plates,etc.) but I would like to know how
much you charge. Do you charge the actual replacement cost in case
everything is not returned? The girl I did the wedding cake for last
week finally had her husband return the plastics, I was not at home and
my husband took the box without checking to make sure everything was
there. When I got home, I went through the box and there was a 16" and
an 8" plate missing. Also they did not wash anything and there was
icing all over everything! Does any one charge a clean-up deposit in
case this happens? Thanx! ~Tina~

Date: October 6th, 1998 12:51:10
From: Carolyn
e-mail: Bridal1
Subject: Re: So THAT'S why...
Ann, as you can see there is quite a variation in prices. I live just north of Kansas City, Missouri, not too far from Iowa - 3 hours south of DesMoines although you didn't say just where in Iowa you were. My prices and sizes are as follows:

9 x 13 = 15 to 20 servings - $18
10 x 14 = 25 servings - $22
11 x 16 = 30-35 servings - $28
12 x 18 = 40-50 servings - $32

If I do half chocolate/half white, then I charge $2 to $3 more per cake or a 9 x 13 would then be $20.

I get $1.50 per serving for wedding cake.

Date: October 5th, 1998 11:27:47
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Why the copyright law???
hi sam :)
i suggest you research the copywrite laws. if you dreamed up some
special cartoon (or other thing) you would want your 'royalties' any
time any person used it in any way, i'm sure.
when ever you see the little 'c' in a circle or 'r' (for registered) it
is *not* copy-able in any way, shape, or form unless you pay for the
right to use it. that also applies to pages in a book etc. we really
have no right to copy someone else's work w/o paying for the use.
it is up to you to watch out for the marking (and tiny, tiny print on
wilton's pans). wilton won't tell you because they want to sell, sell,
sell!
btw; i have from time to time made cakes w/copywrite things on them so
don't think i am trying to be 'holier than thou' :) i just am trying
to say it in a way everyone might understand it. please forgive me if
i come across anyother way.....that's not what i'm after.
lynne

Date: October 5th, 1998 11:03:46
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: another copyright question

Y Y Y E E P P P!!!!!

if it is a 'national league' team.......49ers; etc.

Date: October 5th, 1998 11:01:05
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Why the copyright law???
This subject has come up so many times on this board. If you scan down
or go to the archives you will see a lot about it. Most of us are well
aware that there could be a huge fine levied against us if we are caught
selling copyrighted material. You need to know your customers well if
you do it. There are all kinds of traps out there and most of us who
have been doing cakes for any length of time can tell you about them.
If I were you I would not display the kinds of cakes you have on your
web site for that very reason.

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:51:30
From: Sam P.
e-mail:
Subject: Why the copyright law???
Would someone tell me: If it is illegal to sell characters to our
customers then why doesn't Wilton instructors tell us when we take
their classes!!! 75% of my customers order and re-order Characters.
I also free hand characters all the time on sheet cakes and all the
local bakeries do also. Then are they not breaking the law?
Would someone tell me what the deal is. Is the law not different in
each state. I work out of my home.
Thank guys for your input on this matter.
Sam P.

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:40:37
From: Tammy H.
e-mail: thuls@adams.net
Subject: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
Hi Ann,

I live in Illinois, close to Iowa and Missouri. My prices are as
follows beginning November 1, 1998:

9X13 $12
11X15 $17
12X18 $23

I have a friend who decorates in Iowa, and I think she is just about the
same, maybe a fraction higher. Good Luck!

Date: October 5th, 1998 08:27:14
From: dee
e-mail: ChefNana1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Just starting out...For Marida
Marida, what is a lady windmere board? Is it different sizes from the other boards your hubby cuts for you? dee:-)

Date: October 5th, 1998 08:39:14
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Just starting out...For Marida
The Lady Windermere cake is usually a seven tier cake with four tiers on
the bottom and three tiers on top of that. The board is shaped like a
clover. If you put 4 quarters together (two on the top and two below)
that would give you an idea of what the board would look like. My
husband used 12" circles to go by. I have four of those cakes coming up
in October and November. They usually serve 200-250. I am putting the
Westminster cake on the cover of Wedding Cakes a Wilton Album this
weekend. If you look at that cake you will get an idea of how the board
is shaped. I will put that cake all together at my house and deliver it
to the hotel with only the steeple piece to be put on when we get there.
Hope this answers your question.

Date: October 5th, 1998 07:05:08
From: Debbie G.
e-mail:
Subject: another copyright question
Are the logos for football, baseball, basketball, etc. teams
copyrighted? Do we run into the same problem with these as we do with
copyrighted characters?

Date: October 5th, 1998 05:27:07
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Just starting out...
Tricia, you are experiencing one of the hardest things for beginners.
You have to absorb so much cost until you have enough business to know
how to wholesale and how you can save money. Just one example for me
was that I use to buy my masonite cake boards from a local cake
decorating store for $5.00 each. My husband now buys a sheet of
masonite for $10.00 and can get me at least 8 cake boards out of it. So
where I would have paid $40.00 for the board I now get them for $10.00.
He also saves me tremendously on Lady Windemere boards. I use to payas
much as $50.00 for them and he cuts them for just a few dollars. So,
you see, as you go along you will be able to cut your costs. You need
to shop sales for cake mixes, etc. Don't get discouraged!!!

Date: October 5th, 1998 05:10:56
From: Tricia
e-mail: ttleahy2@aol.com
Subject: Just starting out...
I'm just starting out and have been asked to do a baby shower cake from
the Wilton 99 yearbook (the cake is made to look like a mobile is
hanging from it). The cake is adorable, but when you add the cost for
all the supplies (pedestal, plates, etc.) it runs over $60.00. Is this
just something I'm going to have to absorb until I get more business.
Thanks for any advice!

Date: October 5th, 1998 05:19:59
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Getting started!!
You definitely should take a class. They are not expensive and at least
it gets you started. I help a lot of people in my area but I tell them
they should get a few lessons under their belt. After you have taken a
class or two (and they are not expensive) then you can practice, give
some cakes away and see exactly where you want to go with it. The
instructor will tell you what you need to buy for her course. I took a
$15.00 cake decorating class in 1979 just for the fun of it and never
dreamed that one day I would own my own business. One thing for sure,
you don't take a class and expect to do wedding cakes immediately. You
have to pay your dues by doing birthday cakes, shower cakes, etc.
anything to get exposure. There was one lady in my area who thought she
could approach hotels, give out her cards and get orders without even
having a class. It is the most gratifying business to be in but it
takes time and patience to build up your reputation but it sure can
happen as witnessed by a lot of us on this message board.

Date: October 5th, 1998 05:00:05
From: sherry
e-mail: sherry.turfler@usa.net
Subject: Getting started!!
Hi. I need some advise from anyone willing to share. Im thinking about
becoming a cake decorator but Im not sure of how to start, what to buy,
If I should take a class, etc... Ive decorated a few simple one layer
cakes and I really enjoy it. Any advise either for or against cake
decorating would be appreciated.
Thanks!!
Sherry

Date: October 5th, 1998 04:01:06
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Color-Flow
hi jody; like jennifer, i don't do much color-flow work either.
however when i do it almost always is *my choice* to use that technique
so why should i charge the customer more? could you make the design
w/a wafer-paper drawing or figure pipe it? then why charge more for
colorflow? did the customer specify it was to be a colorflow
decoration.....and it is very involved then maybe i'd concider an extra
charge.
lynne

Date: October 5th, 1998 02:02:05
From: ann
e-mail:
Subject: So THAT'S why...
Thank you! Now I understand why everyone refused to give me dimensions.
They must have been told not to give them out. One lady actually kept
saying "you know, a sheet is a sheet...a 1/2 sheet would be half of a
sheet"-Ugh! I couldn't understand why they wouldn't just get out a
ruler and measure it! Thanks for everyone's measurements and
prices..that will help me. I live in Iowa by the way...but am really a
Texan so don't have much of a feel for the Iowa "culture" and what
they'll pay so it is helpful to check out local prices. Thanks! ann

Date: October 5th, 1998 01:55:12
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
9x13 - $30,00
11x15 - 45.00
15x18 - 60.00

I live in Northern Virginia.

Date: October 5th, 1998 11:53:58
From: Jody
e-mail: RunyanFmly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
Hi Ann, When I called around to the different stores and bakeries, I
got the same run-around. Fortunately, when asked, they did tell me the
cake dimensions so at least I could compare "apples to apples and
oranges to oranges". Some places carried sizes altogether different
from mine, but I was still able to get a pretty good average. My prices
start at:

9x13 $15.
11x15 $22.
12x18 $30.
full sheet (2- 12x18) $55.

Again, these are my "start at" prices. If they want me to do something
more detailed than a basic cake with a few flowers on it then it goes
up appropriately. (By the way, I live in South Carolina.)

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:49:23
From: Jennifer
e-mail: gigimama@aol.com
Subject: Re: Color-Flow
I haven't done alot of flow-in pieces, and most of the one's I've done have been very simple with little detail. Those are very quick and easy to do and I haven't charged any extra. I did do one cross for a 1st communion cake that was very detailed and I should have charged extra for, maybe $3-$5?

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:45:33
From: Jennifer
e-mail: gigimama@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
Unfortuately, there is no standard size system for sheet cakes, which makes it very difficult to compare. That is why the bakeries you called wouldn't give the exact dimensions, to make it difficult to compare prices. You just have to guestimate by eye and the number of servings they quote, though that is variable, too. Usually, a 1/4 sheet is about a 9 X 13, but sometimes a little smaller, and a 1/2 sheet ranges from the 11x15 to 12x18. In my area, the supermarket charges about $14 for a 1/4 sheet, the bakeries charge $20-24 and I'm charging $23 for a 9x13.

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:22:50
From: Tina
e-mail: jcup2@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
Ann,

My sizes are: 9x13-(1/4 sheet) $10.00
11x15 (serves 25-35) $20.00
12x18 (1/2 sheet) $25.00
18x24 (full sheet) $50.00

This is what I usually charge unless someone wants alot of detail, then
I'll charge a little extra.

Hope this helps you. I know you'll get a lot of different prices and
sizes from the others. It just depends on where you live, I guess!

~Tina~

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:15:09
From: Tina
e-mail: jcup2@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: how much to charge for wedding cake plastics
Thanx everybody!! I've been doing cakes for 15 years and wedding cakes
for about 11 and I have never charged any kind of deposit for these
things. I guess I've just been too trusting!! It's only been recently
(last 2-3) years that I have noticed that people just don't seem to
care about other people's property. I guess I'll just start charging a
deposit and see what happens!

Date: October 5th, 1998 09:06:29
From: ann
e-mail:
Subject: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
I read on this board that one woman charges (for cakes) below local
bakery prices and above local groceries, to be competitive. I like that
idea and so called around and got prices of 1/4 sheet, 1/2 sheet and
full sheets. Nobody, however, could tell me the MEASUREMENTS of these
sheets. I want to compare them to my cakes (9 by 13, 12 by 18, etc.)
and so need the measurements of a full sheet (I assume a 1/4 is just 1/4
of that and a 1/2 is 1/2?!). Can anyone help me?? Thanks!

Date: October 6th, 1998 06:12:23
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re:**Right On, Jennifer!!** (nt)

Date: October 6th, 1998 04:48:39
From: Debbie G.
e-mail:
Subject: Re: To Lynne and Mirida
Of course Wilton is going to be HUSH HUSH about the trouble customers
could possibly get into with the products they buy. All they care about
is selling the product. They don't care if the customer has to pay a
hefty fine, it's not going to come out of Wilton's pocket. There is so
much information on this subject, somone needs to write a book on it!!!

Date: October 6th, 1998 12:34:04
From: Jennifer
e-mail: gigimama@aol.com
Subject: Re: another copyright question
Most people seem to overlook it, but yes, sports logos are also copyrighted for all pro teams and most, if not all, college teams.

Date: October 6th, 1998 12:40:08
From: Jody
e-mail: RunyanFmly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Just starting out...
Tricia, Unfortunately when you first start out there is a lot of "up-
front" costs to you. On this particular cake you might be better off
buying the entire stand instead of just the few pieces you need for
this cake. This will cost more, but you will always be able to use this
stand.

Make sure you charge a deposit on the stand pieces that you want back.
You charge THEM for the cost of anything that isn't coming back... for
example the topper or the popsicle sticks.

Date: October 6th, 1998 12:31:52
From: Jennifer
e-mail: gigimama@aol.com
Subject: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
I can assure you Wilton is not the place to go to for a definitive answer on copyright law! First of all, as you suspect, I'm sure the person you talked to has no training in copyright law; second of all, Wilton doesn't care, because it is not their copyright, but Disney's or someone elses. Wilton has purchased the right to make the pan, but they cannot give you permission to sell the cake. And, not only does Wilton not care whether you violate someones else's copyright, it is in Wilton's best interest if people do sell the character cakes because then you will buy all the pans and other party paraphanalia to go with them. True, if you are doing it from home and only for friends and relatives you will probably never get in trouble, but it is still a violation of Disney's copyright. Only Disney can give you permission to sell them, and you'd better have it on paper! I realize this subject gets debated to death because we all know plenty of bakeries who do the copyrighted characters, and we are all hoping to find a loophole. But the fact is it is still illegal, though many people choose to do them anyway.

Date: October 6th, 1998 12:03:06
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re:a final suggestion
i hope this will be a final word on copywrite de

Date: October 6th, 1998 11:47:07
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: What to charge
wow!!! where do you live so i can come get one of those??? lol

one rule of thumb is to charge 3&1/2 times the cost of *all*
'ingredients'. this includes board, doily, box etc used. another
way to get a feel for what is the going rate in your area is to call
the local bakeries and ask them the cost of such a cake (like you want
to buy it).
you will get many other suggestions. take time to mull over all
suggestions to come up w/a happy medium for yourself.
lynne

Date: October 6th, 1998 11:32:58
From: Andrea
e-mail: AWestonrob@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
Marida, you are certainly right about the overkill on this subject, but
I can't begin to stress the importance of being careful in this area.
You could do character cakes for 20 years and all it would take to cause
you some misery is a spiteful competitor or a checker turning you in.
Also, it is not worth the risk!!! Especially if you live in a city where
the zoning and health department regualations forbid 'catering' from a
residential area. You can not even begin to imagine the worse case
scenario, even though being turned in is an everyday occurance it does
happen. The copyright laws are VERY strict and almost always favor the
person/company who's rights have been infringed. DO NOT advertise that
you sell character cakes and as someone said before know your customers
-- or just play it safe and use edible art or figurines.

Date: October 6th, 1998 11:03:52
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
Just the other day I got a phone call from a lady who wanted 20 Little
Mermaid cupcakes. I told her I didn't do those because of copyright
laws. She asked me if I could tell her someone in my area who would do
them. I told her no one would. Give me a break! In the first place
who would pay us to paint the Little Mermaid on 20 cupcakes. NOT ME.

We have beat this subject to death on this board.

Date: October 6th, 1998 10:22:14
From: Dolores
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
I think that Marida has hit the nail on the head...Disney is the one who
prosecutes. Not Wilton. And I've been asked for 'home decorators' by
checkers who have tried to fool me and couldn't. I told them I didn't
know any. I know you'll never get in trouble doing this for 'nice'
friends or relatives, but why take the chance. Edible images and the
toys for sceneries are legal. Its not worth the worry and I can sleep
nights. Dolores

Date: October 6th, 1998 10:08:47
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
I am not sure Wilton would be the authority on those laws. It is Disney
you have to worry about. Anyway, play it cool and KNOW your customers.

Date: October 6th, 1998 10:17:47
From: Jody
e-mail: RunyanFmly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Color-Flow
There are so many things that you can do with color-flow that you can't
with wafer paper or by figure piping. One thing in particular is that
you can do it two weeks ahead of time! You can do 3-dimensional pieces,
you can do accent pieces with a nice smooth finish. You can paint them
- either with regular food colors, paste colors or luster dust.

Also, my experience with wafer paper has been less than ideal. I would
love to see some pictures of some cakes that were done with wafer paper
that turned out well. I'd like to see if somebody can sell me on the
concept.

Date: October 6th, 1998 09:50:40
From: Sam P.
e-mail:
Subject: I called Wilton about the laws!
well- well I decided to call Wilton today and they said as long as I am
NOT A BAKERY and I am doing this as a side thing out of my home it is
OK. They said even though the copyright is on their pans, as long as
I am not a Bakery and mass producing them- I can sell to whom I choose.
Cool thats a relief,And I'm glad I got that settled I was sweating it!
But YES I will be careful. Sam P.

Date: October 6th, 1998 10:00:27
From: millie
e-mail: millied@elfatrading.com
Subject: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
I got that same reply some time ago from Wilton but after reading this
board I figured that maybe I just got a customer service rep. that just
didn't know about the laws.

I feel somewhat better now, but how do we find out for sure.

Millie

Date: October 6th, 1998 09:32:48
From: Tina
e-mail: jcup2@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
Tammy, Where in Illinios do you live? I also live in Illinois. I am
about half-way between St. Louis, MO and Springfield, IL.

Date: October 6th, 1998 09:14:58
From: Sam P.
e-mail:
Subject: To Lynne and Mirida
Thanks so much for your input on the Law ??'s Now I understand why
people do these cakes but do not post it. I am making changes on my
web site as of Today. I would still like to know how I can call a
local bakery or store and they will charge $10.00 extra to draw
out a character. Is it legal if you change up their colors? Or to
freehand one? Apparently not!? Get this I called Wilton one day when I
first started out and told them I make characters in my home(DUMMY ME)
I had a question about a character and they said and I quote "when you
have made a few Barneys for your CUSTOMERS then you will get a feel of
just what to do with the colors." It's like they know whats going on in
homes but it's just HUSH-HUSH. Thanks again and I will take some pros
(you guys) advice.
May God bless you both in all you do.
Sam

Date: October 6th, 1998 08:45:38
From: Kristin
e-mail: Krispan@webtv.net
Subject: What to charge
Just starting out! I need to stop being so nice and start charging. For example, I made an espresso sponge cake topped with chocolate mousse and chocolate ganache sauce, it was then covered with chocolate shavings and a chocolate band around the edges. Ingredients were approx $10, not including the time I spent (all from scratch). What is the going rate for a cake like this. I only charged $20. I am starting to make up a price list now that I have tried several cakes and know what is involved. Any suggestions appreciated.

Date: October 7th, 1998 03:52:29
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: What to charge for dummy cakes??
hi patricia; as was said if you are getting any advertising out of
this i would really cut the price.....in fact, i'd prolly just do it
for the exposure.
if they have offered to pay, i'd charge what the 'ingredients' cost
plus a little for my efforts.
lynne

Date: October 7th, 1998 03:47:05
From: ann
e-mail:
Subject: Where's Sam's site?
It must be somewhere on this board, but I couldn't find it?! What is
the address to Sam's site...I'd love to see it!

Date: October 7th, 1998 03:45:41
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Wiltons inturitation of the laws!
marida; you last sentence sayes it :) it's not the *law* that makes
the distinction, it's *wilton*!!!!
i'm sure if you called wilton and explained your 'bakery' to them they
would say you are a 'store-front bakery' in their eyes. the license is
what makes the difference.
lynne
p.s. that's *my* interpetation :)

Date: October 7th, 1998 02:23:31
From: Lisa
e-mail: lisascakes@aol.com
Subject: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
Hi Sam,

I don't know if i would be so quite to take Wilton's word on the copyright law. I would place a call to the Attorny General in your state ask them they can give you the right answer. But first I would do away with the copy righted cakes on your site in case someone comes a knocking.

By the way I enjoyed your site and look forward to visiting again
-Lisa

Date: October 7th, 1998 02:09:52
From: Jennifer
e-mail: gigimama@aol.com
Subject: Re: What to charge for dummy cakes??
I would charge the same. People are paying mostly for the decorating anyway. The cost of the cake itself is minimal, and the dummy probably costs you as much as if it were real cake. You only save a little time for the baking, but the decorating may take longer because dummies can be tricky to ice. However, if they are going to be displaying you business cards or something with the cake and thus giving you some advertising, I'd probably give a little discount.

Date: October 7th, 1998 01:02:24
From: Lena
e-mail:
Subject: Re: What to charge for dummy cakes??
Hi, Patricia,
I have read some people would charge the same as a regular cake. Maybe,
you would like to add all your costs of everything you use, then
determine the amount of profit you would like to receive for your
labor. You don't want to short-change yourself. This is the method I
use for everything I do. For me, it's good practice if I ever open a
bakery. You need the know what your actual costs are and if you are
making the right profit. I hope all this makes sense to you and helps
you some. Good Luck!

Date: October 7th, 1998 10:59:29
From: Patricia
e-mail: pjw1@ra.msstate.edu
Subject: What to charge for dummy cakes??
Do you charge the same as you would if the cake were real or do you cut
the price? The decorating is the same and will take the same amount of
your time except for the baking. I've been asked to prepare a couple of
elaborately decorated holiday cakes for a store display and don't know
how to charge...

Patricia

Date: October 7th, 1998 08:57:34
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
If I was a store front bakery this answer would upset me. I am
home-based, have a license as a retail bakery, and for the life of me I
can't see where the distinction is between me and a store-front bakery
as far as this law goes. What difference does it make whether a
customer walks into Delores' bakery and orders a Disney character cake
or comes to my front door and orders one? Some laws are STUPID. I
ain't getting into this debate anymore!!!!!! I'm not so sure Wilton has
interpreted things the right way. (I use to be a legal secretary.)

Date: October 7th, 1998 07:59:54
From: Elizabeth
e-mail:
Subject: Where is the law?
I certainly trust what everyone has always said on this board about the
copywrite laws, but I am very black and white and have been interested
in READING the laws for myself. Can anyone refer me to any certain
place so I can do some law research on my own? Again, it's not that I
don't belive everyone...I just want to read it! Thanks.

Date: October 7th, 1998 05:36:35
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Where's Sam's site?
She is on Delores' web site. Go to Delores' home page and click onto
Links and you will find her down the page under "Sam's" cakes. She is
also listed with Casanova's web site and I believe she is listed by
herself also.

Date: October 7th, 1998 06:23:41
From: Tammy H.
e-mail: thuls@adams.net
Subject: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes-to Tina
Hi! I had not checked the computer for a few days or I would have
replied sooner! I live in Basco, IL (actually out in the boonies!).
Springfield, IL is 1 1/2 to 2 hours from me. Macomb IL is about 45
minutes West of me. It is nice to hear from you!

Date: October 8th, 1998 07:15:37
From: Dolores
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: What to charge for dummy cakes??
IF the cake is for a bride's wedding,I charge the same. Lena is right,
it probably should be more...for all the extra trouble it is.

IF it is for advertising, I charge them the price of my cake dummies
(plus other materials), then give the money back if/when I get them
back...learned to do this in 'the school of hard knocks.'

Date: October 8th, 1998 07:22:05
From: Dolores
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Where is the law?
Right Marida, I scanned that in for you. I do not have a copy of the
law. You might find it on the web. It would be under copyright laws.

But they made this law for the protection of those people who provide us
with all the wonderful things we use and read everyday.

We must all try and get this entire matter into the correct perspective.
Can you just imagine what it would be like without the copyright law?
Disney would create a character for a cartoon and we would all copy it
as our own...legally then. It is not fair when someone writes a book,
play, creates a character, tools, anything...and someone else infringes,
making profit from someone else's brains and hard work.

I sure wouldn't like it much if someone made copies of the books I've
written - without my permission!

(This is for all who are still wondering) Hope it clarifies.

Date: October 8th, 1998 11:17:25
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Re: Where is the law?
It's me again. I can't believe I'm doing this. Sue, what you sent is a
notice to your customers about the law, but not the law itself. I think
those who want a copy of the exact wording of the law need to either try
to get it at the library and from the document sections of the Federal
Government. God help them!!

Date: October 8th, 1998 07:41:56
From: Sue
e-mail: proicer@one.net
Subject: Re: Where is the law?
We have the law posted in our store, email us or I could fax it to you.
Our suppliers gave it to us!

Sue at Sugarcraft, Inc.

Date: October 9th, 1998 11:53:44
From: Tina
e-mail: jcup2@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes-to Tammy
Tammy, I know where Macomb is. My daughter just went there a couple
of weeks ago for a music festival with her high school choir. I used
to go there for contests when I was in grade school (many moons ago!!)

Nice hearing from you, too!

Date: October 12th, 1998 09:46:42
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: What size cake should I use?
hi sophie;

that sheet is a bit small. why not add a 9" heart layer on top of it?
or use an small dbl oval and make it into a bassinette?

btw: this catagory is for pricing ?s. in the future you might be more
answers if you put it in decorating problems catagory :)
lynne

Date: October 12th, 1998 03:04:06
From: Sophie
e-mail: wylie@mychoice.net
Subject: What size cake should I use?
I need a cake to serve 40 people for a baby shower. What size sheet
pan should I use? I have an 11 x 15 pan, too small huh?

Date: October 12th, 1998 04:05:49
From: Carolyn
e-mail: bridal1
Subject: Re: What size cake should I use?
Yes, I would say your pieces would be awfully small to get 40 out of an 11 x 15. I would probably go with a 12 x 18 and I tell the customer that serves 40 - 50 depending on what size pieces they want to cut. Since you don't have a 12 x 18, maybe you could do a 9" round layer on top to get some extra pieces out of. What is the occasion? I would put the 9" layer or 8" or whatever you want on a cardboard so that it could be removed if not needed and given to the honoree.

Date: October 12th, 1998 12:01:17
From: Carolyn
e-mail: Bridal1
Subject: We need name and subject to be able to read your message!!
In order to read your messages, we need at least a subject to click on - otherwise, to my knowledge, you can't access it. I haven't been able to anyway. If it's that important to write 3 times, please at least give us a subject and we'd also like to know who you are. Most of us would not know you anyway and especially by your e-mail name. What's the deal??

Date: October 13th, 1998 03:08:29
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Legal or Not
hi ashley;
here's a quote from a gal who has some books copyrighted:
"if you have heard of the character, there's a 99.9% probability that
it's copyrighted." --marsha winbeckler.
i will have to get her permission to quote anymore of her interesting
pg in a monthly newsletter, as it is copyrighted :)

also if you see *anywhere* on the packaging a sm. letter 'r' or a c in
a circle that is the copyright sign.
to be safe, if you recognize any character, it most likely is illegal
for you to reproduce it on a cake *for sale* (you can make it & give as
a gift).

hope that helps you.
lynne

Date: October 13th, 1998 01:11:54
From: Ashley
e-mail: arc@email.byu.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
Just a question. I am starting out. What do you mean when you say they
are your "start out" prices? What does that include? A message on the
cake? Any decorating?

Date: October 13th, 1998 01:01:48
From: Ashley
e-mail: arc@email.byu.edu
Subject: Legal or Not
How do you know if you can sell a charater cake - if it is legal or not?
I have heard a lot of legal and not legal talk and I don't know the
difference.

Date: October 13th, 1998 05:44:58
From: Patty Toth
e-mail: ptoth@wilton.com
Subject: Re: I called Wilton about the laws!
I am the Licensing Director at Wilton Industries, Inc. and you have
quoted incorrect information. Under NO circumstances is anyone allowed
by bake any products and sell them for profit. First, the licensor has
copyrighted artwork and it is illegal to reproduce without their
written permission, and second, you will need to pay the licensor a
portion of your profits if indeed they agree to negotiate a contract
with you.
For the following properties, contact Disney directly: Winnie the
Pooh, Mickey Unlimited, 101 Dalmatians, Hercules, Little Mermaid and
any other property which is copyrighted Disney.
For Looney Tunes and Batman,contact Warner Bros.
For Barbie, contact Mattel.
For Barney, contact Lyrick Studios.

Date: October 15th, 1998 01:06:34
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Plastic characters to put on cakes.. Legal or not?
hi julie;
i found an article in an ices newsletter from late 1995. the editor is
a published author herself. her opinion is this:

"many people feel they can circumvent the law in one of 3 ways......
3.) using licensed toys as the cake's main decoration. to protect
yourself, you should ask the customer to purchase the toys themselves
and place them on the cake at home."

hope that helps you understand. just because someone else does
something does not make it legal. so what you see in the bakeries may
or may not be legal.

edible images *are legal* to use. the licensing fee was pd and
permission given for their use. if you have priced them you know any
of the copyrighted ones are much high in price than those that are not.

there is one other way, and that;s to buy a special set of cards from
kopykake co. i personally talked to them and was told you get a signed
permission paper (or some such item) that allows you to sell cakes made
this way. for those, you usually use the airbrush to make your picture
following the provided image on a card put into the kopykake maching.
these sets are about $50 ea and there are about 10 of them. (you can
buy one at a time). i'm not sure if dolores has them or not. ck her
online catalog.
hope this helps you understand better.
lynne

Date: October 14th, 1998 09:47:27
From: Julie Di
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Getting started!!
Hi,
I am just starting out too so i am a little bit ahead of you.. I am
taking the wilton at home study coarse. I have already had a few orders
for birthday cakes from my neighbor. I take pictures of every cake and
practice cake i do for the coarse and for selling. I want to in the
near future take a class with an instructor, But where i live right now,
there aren't any classes available. Start out small. Work on getting
boarders, flowers and icing the cake just right. When you feel
confident enough to start selling, make up business cards and give them
to family and friends. You will be surprized at how fast word of mouth
will spread from your family and friends if you are good. Start out on
novelty cakes and learn the star teachnique. And go from there. Start
out small, until you feel confedent to move on. Don't rush to do a
wedding cake at first. I have yet to make one, but am anxious to try.
I don't think i am ready though. I hope this helps. Don't get
discouraged if your first few cakes are a disaster. You learn from your
mistakes. And most importantly, visit the cake board and ask questions.
Julie

Date: October 14th, 1998 09:33:29
From: Julie Di
e-mail:
Subject: Plastic characters to put on cakes.. Legal or not?
Hi, I know it is illegal to sell character cakes...I see it in the
archives.. I do want to know though, What about making a sheet cake and
putting a plastic character on the cake? like they do in bakeries? Is
that legal? And what about edible images? Where do i stand on selling
those? Thanks,I know this subject is old.
Julie

Date: October 14th, 1998 09:24:10
From: Julie Di
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Just starting out...
Hi, I am just starting out too, and one thing you need to remember is
even if you are selling to friends or family, don't cheet yourself.
Charge for Everything the customer gets!, your supplies, your time, your
gas money if you are delivering, take every little thing into account.
If there is a cake stand that they want used that you don't have, you
will have to take a little loss by buying it but charge them a rental
fee for it,
maybe half of the cost of the stand. I have seen the cake you are going
to make, it is so pretty. If you have talied up the cost of supplies to
make the cake, and it comes to $60, is that with or without the stand?
Tali it up without the stand, just the general supplies: fondant, icing
and cake ingredience, the ornament, styrofoam circle, dowel rods,
ribbons, and cake boards. What does that come to? Now add cake stand
rental fee, labor fee, and gas fee. Other things you will have to take
a loss on are tips, fondant molds, cake pans, icing colors, cookie
cutters, plastic cake plates, cake boxes, etc. ( Things the customer
doesn't get to keep.) Just buy things as you need them to keep from
going in over your head. I hope this helps some.
Julie

Date: October 14th, 1998 11:35:52
From: Carolyn
e-mail: Bridal1
Subject: Re: Legal or Not
About halfway down this message board, check out the new message of October 13 from Patty Toth of the Wilton company. This should clear it up.

Date: October 14th, 1998 11:24:18
From: Jody
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Comparing prices: sheet cakes
A basic cake, to me, has a basic design and message. It can include
roses, pansies, daisies or drop flowers and a message. It can have
something drawn on it with 2-4 colors. The price goes up as they start
asking for specialty items or something with a lot of detail work.

These are some things that I charge extra for:

plastic pieces; edible images; color-flow; flowers that take longer to
make such as daffodils or mums; a lot of extra flowers; flowers and
leaves on stems; a design with 5 or more colors; a design with a lot of
detail work; gum paste; fondant; etc.

I really have to play it by ear sometimes. I had a man call me and
request a cake and said he would send home a picture that he wanted on
the cake with my husband. I gave him the price of the cake before I saw
the picture. Big mistake! This $15.00 cake took me several hours to
decorate because of all the detail on it.

Another problem I run into is when people request a picture of
something on the cake and DON'T send an original. I can sometimes spend
hours looking for a graphic or something to use for a pattern. My time
is valuable to me and my customers need to understand that.

Well, I guess I've gone on long enough. I hope this helps some.

Date: October 15th, 1998 10:20:27
From:
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Getting started!!
Be very careful with business cards. If you are not operating your
business "legally" (by being approved through the health department,
zoning department, etc.) those business cards can get you into a lot of
trouble.

Date: October 15th, 1998 10:02:56
From: Julie Di
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Plastic characters to put on cakes.. Legal or not?
Thanks Lynne,
I would like to do the cakes where i make the sheet cake and the
customer buys the plastic characters to stick on them. How about I
order the plastic characters, make a sheet cake, sell the cake to the
customer and then sell the plastic characters seprately to the customer,
and have them put it on the cake. Will that be legal?
thanks,
Julie

Date: October 15th, 1998 12:55:36
From: Tricia
e-mail: ttleahy2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Just starting out...
Julie:

Thanks for the great advice!! I know it's going to be expensive to
start out, but hopefully the more I do, the easier it will get. Good
Luck!!

Date: October 15th, 1998 07:18:45
From: Dolores
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Plastic characters to put on cakes.. Legal or not?
You won't get into trouble putting plastic characters on cakes. Just
think of it this way...you didn't change one thing about the characters.
They are the same as the licensee made. If this was illegal, bakeries
just wouldn't do it. The 'checkers' are always out and we know they are.

It would be pretty hard to allow just the right sized area for a figure
if you don'e have it to put in place I would think.

I also read the article Lynne read. I don't know if the writer knew for
sure what they were talking about. Forget who wrote it.

Date: October 16th, 1998 10:33:47
From: Debbie G.
e-mail:
Subject: Website about Copyright Law
There is a website at www.nolo.com that has info on patent, copyright, &
trademark laws. Go to the site, look in the right hand column called
Nolo's Legal Encyclopedia & click on patent, copyright, & trademark.

Date: October 17th, 1998 11:16:43
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Air Brush Decorating Cakes
I like using an airbrush for doing sky, roads, etc. I'm not proficient
like Frances Kruper but we do like using it. I hava a Pasche but have
never used it as I have an old one I bought many years ago and I am use
to using it. Delores probably has several kinds on her catalog page. I
think they are worth the investment.

Date: October 17th, 1998 06:36:03
From: Sherrie
e-mail: vannoys@hotmail.com
Subject: Air Brush Decorating Cakes
I would like to know your profesional thoughts on air brush decorating
on cakes. I am thinking on buying the required equipment (air brush and
compressor)soon but do not know what brands are better than others. Can
any body help, and what about pricing cakes?
Thanks for your help, Sherrie

Date: October 18th, 1998 12:55:22
From: Brenda
e-mail: jamesalex@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Air Brush Decorating Cakes
Sherrie, I just bought the Air Master spray gun & comp. from Delores,
it works great. You can make your own stencils and use it with them,
do stencil borders or just about anything you can think of. It's very
easy to use. I also bought a couple pattern books to get some ideas.

Date: October 18th, 1998 11:57:56
From: Sue
e-mail: proicer@one.net
Subject: Re: Re: Air Brush Decorating Cakes
You CAN air brush on EVERY cake you do! That's a bold statement but
true. I don't know what we would do with out our Air brush! There are so
many techinques that you can do! A world will open for you.

We have the kopykake Kroma Jet A2000 model. Its only $155.00.
Lightweight and very EASY to use. Plug it in, turn it on, drop in a drop
of air brush color and pull back the trigger!

We did invest in the AirMaster compressor which is WONDERFUL. It spays
flowers so well that it looks like the icing was colored, not sprayed.

Sue at Sugarcraft, Inc.

Date: October 20th, 1998 01:26:55
From: BethA
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: Re: one last copyright question
Terri....In Alabama, the Health Dept is different in each county. Where
I live, I couldn't even enclose a garage for a kitchen. It had to be
completely separate from my house. I bought a mobile home and remodeled
it with a health dept approved kitchen. It has been one of the best
investments for me.

Date: October 19th, 1998 04:55:27
From: Terri
e-mail:
Subject: Re: Re: one last copyright question
I'm also sure this won't be the last question, but I wish some one
or myself could find a clear written "do's and dont's" for the home
based bakery or retail shop on these copyright laws. I have been
planning to open a home based business for some time now, if I could
only get the Health Department to bend their rules for us in Alabama.
A separate kitchen, bathroom, and septic tank is killing me at this
point. Is there any one else out there in AL facing these problems? I
would sure like to hear what they tell you. With all these laws, I'm
begining to wonder if I should open a business or not and possibly stop
doing what I love best. I guess the headache is worth it, 'cause I
love to decorate and see my son's face each birthday. My daughter and
son love to challenge me each year.

Thank for answering so soon!

Terri

Date: October 19th, 1998 02:32:46
From: lynne
e-mail:
Subject: Re: one last copyright question
first, i rather doubt this will be the last ? on copywrite laws...lol!

now, to address your ?. it is illegal to *sell* any form of a
copywriteed figure on any cake with the exception of edible images.
i bet if you read the pkg'ing on that plastic face you will find some
small print stating something like "for home use only".

i'm not an expert on coypwrite law....there is a (*very small*)
possibility i'm wrong but i doubt it :)
lynne

Date: October 19th, 1998 07:48:05
From: Marida
e-mail: binsted@erols.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: one last copyright question
Terri: Every jurisdiction has a different rule regarding home-based
business. Where I live I just had to apply for a license, charge a
sales tax and that was it. When I lived 20 miles (in the same State)
from where I live now I could not get licensed. I am so happy that I
was able to get licensed (actually a retail license) to be able to do
this from my home. Some of the requirements in some of the states are
pretty hard to meet, both finacially and physically. There is a lot of
discussion on both copyright and licensing earlier on this message
board. Check it out.

Date: October 19th, 1998 01:07:52
From: Terri
e-mail:
Subject: one last copyright question
If you buy the Barbie, Little Mermaid, Poccahontas, etc. replacement
faces for the pans and use them on a sheet cake and draw the remaining
body would this still be considered an illegal "copyright law". You
have purchased the face and paid for the "copyright use" am I wrong in
believing this? Plese respond ASAP because I have just used this method
and had a wonderful response for future uses.

Thank for your help.

Terri